tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post612920402150122002..comments2024-03-28T00:20:09.242-07:00Comments on Comic and Screen: Themes and Character Arcs in Captain America: Civil Warottensamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09653631895217229875noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-65295663393082642962017-10-22T20:49:40.733-07:002017-10-22T20:49:40.733-07:00Your blog post is one of the few very comprehensio...Your blog post is one of the few very comprehension articles on the film. While I disagree with a lot of your conclusions, I appreciate how well thought-out your arguments are. <br /><br />"but my personal taste is for more thematic "development and conclusion" rather than just "exploration," which can be aimless. This is personal taste."<br /><br />Well the thing is I do think there was a valid conclusion to the themes explored. Many people have pointed out how the conflicts dealt lasting damage to the characters. If the film wanted to explore how these characters are destroyed by their own choices (the tragic irony of being "yourself" means being punished for it), then the logical way to do that is to follow through and have the consequences stick. If they wanted to explore the destruction of friendship and family, then they need to keep it that way at the end of the film and have the dismantlement of that family stick. The Avengers were literally left with two active members with the rest of them as fugitives. And while Tony isn't pursuing his revenge by the end of the film, the Russo brothers have confirmed that come Infinity War, there is still going to be tension between them and they aren't going to just interact like nothing happened. I don't think it's aimless. There's a clear cause and effect.<br /><br /><br />"I still think Tony's parental revenge angle in Act 3 was separate from his guilt-about-Avengers-overreach at the beginning. And at the end, if the thematic coherence comes from everyone ending up worse than they started because of "consequences," then I think the "Stank" jokes were really misplaced."<br /><br />That's only a problem if you viewed the themes of guilt and avengers-overreach as the core of the film. It may have a large presence in act 1, but it doesn't make sense to judge the film by act 1. The core themes are present in act 1, 2, and 3 when you look at the film as a whole. There's also the fact that the avengers overreach and superhero accountability "theme" could just be a plot element. Not necessarily a thematic base. <br /><br />Act 1 already set the foundations of the theme of friendship and the destruction of it that continues throughout the film. It also establishes foundation of agency and consequences, and how the level of agency over their choices never changes but the consequences became more drastic. <br /><br />This is seen in the stark contrast of how they were trying to resolve the conflict during the beginning and end of the film. It began with having a discussion about their disagreements then escalated into physical conflict.<br /><br />You're right about the misplaced jokes. I've actually been a consistent critic of how Marvel's humor could be overbearing. It's very similar to how Dr. Strange inserted that very inorganic laugh by the asian guy after they won the climatic battle. But I don't think misplaced humor negates the thematic validity. It just lessens it, and the degree to how much is diminished will obviously vary from person to person, but for me it just wasn't that big of a deal in Civil War. Yes, Rhodey will continue to call Tony'Tony Stank'. Great. He's still partially paralyzed and the Avengers are still left with only two active members. Captain America and his crew are left on the run in which you could only conclude is going to bring a significant decrease in quality of life. Those lingering thoughts still leave me sadden for these characters in spite of the bad humor. Even Zemo didn't end up with his ideal scenario of being dead. <br /><br />" but I still don't think the filmmakers showed us a real lesson being learned on his part."<br /><br />Well if he isn't pursuing the revenge, then that's a lesson learned. It's certainly a change from how much of a determinator he was during the fight in Siberia to how he's just sitting in his chair not actively looking for Bucky.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04270209936040063539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-20074509079207130872017-10-22T19:31:42.602-07:002017-10-22T19:31:42.602-07:00Thanks for thoughtfully engaging with the blog pos...Thanks for thoughtfully engaging with the blog post. I don't have much time here tonight, but I'll just share a few quick reactions.<br /><br />Yes, if you broaden the definition of "theme" then there are certainly themes at play in Civil War, but I think the Act 1 themes and the Act 3 themes are quite distinct. (Sure, you can always go very broad like actions-and-consequences and get everything to fit under it, but the movie got more specific at times and then didn't follow through on those, in my view.) And I agree with you that themes were "explored," but my personal taste is for more thematic "development and conclusion" rather than just "exploration," which can be aimless. This is personal taste.<br /><br />I still think Tony's parental revenge angle in Act 3 was separate from his guilt-about-Avengers-overreach at the beginning. And at the end, if the thematic coherence comes from everyone ending up worse than they started because of "consequences," then I think the "Stank" jokes were really misplaced.<br /><br />I also still think the seriousness and weightiness in Act 1 about the Avengers' actions (which I thought worked well) was really undercut by all the jokes in Act 2 and elsewhere.<br /><br />You're right that Tony seemed to not be going after Steve any longer at the very end, but I still don't think the filmmakers showed us a real lesson being learned on his part. (And yes, that is a personal preference for me to see character arcs that end up in a change or realization by the character.)<br /><br />I think it's good that others found strong meaning for them from this movie. Most Civil War fans I've interacted with do not engage in this type of analysis. And this blog post was just a tracing of how I view movies -- from my perspective. (Of course I'm biased, because I can only view movies as myself. But I do have consistent things I look for in terms of themes, arcs, motifs, and coherence across all three of those aspects.)ottensamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09653631895217229875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-84669699397782483892017-10-22T19:09:39.087-07:002017-10-22T19:09:39.087-07:00Let me tackle one of the things you've said in...Let me tackle one of the things you've said in your blog post:<br /><br />"the resolution of the fight did not allow Tony to actually learn his lessons about the danger of vengeance. The only reason Tony failed to carry out his vengeance was because Cap physically stopped him. This circumvented the actual lesson being learned. To learn the lesson, Tony would have had to come to a realization and then reined himself in."<br /><br />You said that Tony's arc can't be a reflection of "vengeance is destructive and toxic"(paraphrasing) because he was forcibly prevented from killing Bucky and didn't do it on his own accord, therefore he didn't learn that vengeance is bad. This is a very narrow and limited view on the matter, not to mention it's just not correct. Think about how criminals or people in real life are forcibly stopped by law enforcement or tossed into prison. Many of those people end up reflecting on what happened after they can cool off. To say that Tony didn't learn that vengeance is bad and destructive because he was forcibly stopped is just incorrect and has no real basis in real life.<br /><br />We see in the film's ending that he's reflecting on things that have happened and he knows he behaved poorly. That's basically confirmed in Homecoming when he tells Peter to be better than himself. There's also the fact that by the end of the film he isn't attempting to find Cap and Bucky in order to fullfill his revenge. Yes he was stopped the first time, but why didn't he just try again if he didn't learn his lesson? Because he let it go, he knows in his heart it wasn't justified. It's reasonable to conclude that he knows that he acted in the wrong. So even at your own suggestion of what the theme could be if it was "vengeance is/can be destructive and dangerous", it could work here and is certainly present in enough characters namely Zemo, Black Panther, Iron Man. It also ties in with agency, destruction of family, and is explored through contrast of other characters who aren't specifically motivated by revenge but are still effected by it.<br /><br />Here's another point I want to address:<br /><br />"Cap starts with trust in himself and loyalty to Bucky above others (e.g., Tony), through the rising action of the movie he has the same convictions, and by the end we have Cap trusting himself over the Avengers and clinging to his loyalty to Bucky."<br /><br />I want to point out that character arcs don't have to be formed the way you're suggesting here and be filled with overt and drastic changes in motivation or some large life lesson learned. Changes could be very subtle and happen upon reflection.<br /><br />Yes, Cap did start out protecting Bucky and ended up doing the exact same. His loyalties didn't change. But he dropped his shield at the end of the film after Tony pointed out that it was his fathers. Do you think Cap would have done that at *any* point of the film prior to that moment? Cap reflected on everything that happened and decided that yes, he is guilty in some ways and acted selfishly and made big mistakes born out of his choices Cap, per word of god (the directors) has given up the identity of Captain America at that point. The point here is that it's a change in spite of a lack of motive shift.<br /><br />A lot of this just ties back to what I said in the beginning, I think you're just not considering multiple angles. You viewed a lack of a character arc in really specific terms but people have been able to identify other ways the characters changed. Your views on what themes the film should/could have followed, were well thought-out, but again it's not the whole story and there were clearly recurring themes at play in the story that you didn't bring up or maybe just didn't consider, all of which cultivated to an ending, like I stated earlier, where every character ended up in the worse position than they started out in. <br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04270209936040063539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-44877477068108248672017-10-22T19:02:25.734-07:002017-10-22T19:02:25.734-07:00This comment had to be split into two parts becaus...This comment had to be split into two parts because it's too long and I still wasn't to address every part of your blog post that I didn't agree with.<br /><br />I wrote some older comments before but those were written on my phone and at 4am in the morning and as a result my points were not as articulated as well as they could have been. It was also hard for me to quote specific passages from your blog post (which is really nicely written, by the way, though I really couldn't shake off the impression of bias being present in how you viewed things) in order to address specific arguments.<br /><br />You found the film to be thematically disjointed but I believe this is because you only considered certain angles but not others. Some of your views on how the plotlines and character arcs should be concluded are also flawed and too pigeon-holed into certain frameworks and narrative styles.<br /><br />http://screencrush.com/captain-america-civil-war-themes/<br /><br />https://54disneyreviews.com/2016/05/12/cap-america-civil-war-detailed-review-spoilers/<br /><br />These are two examples of how others have been able to identify a central idea and theme that ties in multiple plot threads of the film. The themes of choice and agency, as well as the relationship of friendships and family, and how it gets destroyed in escalating and increasingly uncompromising conflict are all explored in the film. <br /><br />While you have in another blog post, (I can't remember which one exactly) dismissed the contemporary understanding of what a theme is, and instead suggested that in literary terms themes must be used to make a conclusion about a subject, that goes against what the general understanding of what themes are and how they are used. In fact, what you're describing sounds more like a "thesis". It's not really what themes are. Themes are subject matter, that yes, does require some level of consistent presence throughout the film. <br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theme_(narrative)<br /><br />*"The most common contemporary understanding of theme is an idea or point that is central to a story, which can often be summed in a single word (e.g. love, death, betrayal). Typical examples of themes of this type are conflict between the individual and society; coming of age; humans in conflict with technology; nostalgia; and the dangers of unchecked ambition. A theme may be exemplified by the actions, utterances, or thoughts of a character in a novel. An example of this would be the thematic idea of loneliness in John Steinbeck's Of Mice and Men, wherein many of the characters seem to be lonely. It may differ from the thesis—the text's or author's implied worldview."*<br /><br />So your suggestion that Civil War is thematically disjointed is already misguided. I don't think every work needs strong and overt thesis to anchor the story. I'm not saying it's bad, in fact some of the best works feature it in the form of powerful commentary. But what you're describing comes dangerously close to what an aesop is.<br /><br />http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnAesop<br /><br />Kind of how certain documentaries are there to document cause and effect and exploration of a particular subject, there doesn't need to be a preaching angle to the subject matter. Often times people leave it vague and up to interpretation. Cap and Tony's stances for instances are not presented in a clear right or wrong manner, not to most people anyways. The film explored how agency served as a double-edged sword to nearly all of the characters. Every major character (with the exception of Spider-Man who only went home bruised, though as the author of one of the links I posted put it well, his entire involvement of becoming spider-man also ties into the theme of agency) ended the film dealing with drastic consequences as a direct result of their choices in the film. The conviction behind their choices and the consequences from them all vary to various degrees but all of them ended up in worse positions than they started out in. <br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04270209936040063539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-87485467717127590672017-10-22T12:16:05.459-07:002017-10-22T12:16:05.459-07:00"was treated as fun and games in Civil War.&q..."was treated as fun and games in Civil War."<br /><br />But it was never treated as fun and games. It was brushed aside by the second half of the film but it was never made light of. The film didn't just say "now collateral damage is okay" it just shifted it's attention away from it but that isn't the same as supporting it.<br /><br />"I felt most of them were somewhat arbitrarily divided up on one side or the other."<br /><br />Given their respective histories, it wasn't arbitrary. You think it's a stretch to say that Ant-Man wanted to help Captain America get rid of "psycho assassins" when the latter specifically asked for his help? He loves his daughter and I'm sure that he doesn't want her to live in a world where these other winter soldiers are running around if he can help it. And he's in a unique position to help here because he's fighting with other superheros, and, his suit has a unique skillset in that world that's undoubtedly valuable .<br /><br />Wanda's just not going to side with Tony after all she's been through in AoU and Civil War with Tony keeping her confined and essentially jailed.<br /><br />Rhodey has always been a government man in stark contrast to Cap who was at first but eventually became jaded after what happened with shield and hydra. <br /><br />Black Widow has always been more flexible and pragmatic. Her stance here is a reflection of that. She may not be all for the accords but she wants to defuse the tension in a very shield agent fashion. Contrast this to again, Steve, who is a soldier and who's views on things are rigid and black and white.<br /><br />They aren't arbitrarily divided. Their stances are actually a reflection of their past lives, the developments of their past actions, or just their characteristics in general. Vision is the only one that you could probably make an argument for that he's probably placed on a side in order to balance the team numbers. But for everyone else, it happened naturally.<br /><br />I don't want to come across as rude, but I do find it hard to believe you're not being biased when you say Bruce's charaecter arc was a masterpiece from the opening monologue to the closing monologue, then call Tony's arc a mess. You do seem heavily skewed in favor of DC.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04270209936040063539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-68548635997643771722017-10-22T04:52:48.289-07:002017-10-22T04:52:48.289-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04270209936040063539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-41171903724089570372017-10-22T04:13:15.021-07:002017-10-22T04:13:15.021-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04270209936040063539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-1476573435521695642017-05-05T22:48:10.202-07:002017-05-05T22:48:10.202-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00599529127992975394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-79571124576594726852017-03-21T17:35:10.801-07:002017-03-21T17:35:10.801-07:00Everett Ross was the character played by Martin Fr...Everett Ross was the character played by Martin Freeman, underdeveloped and nonessential, as evidenced by people not even remembering who he was. Penny was just a typo for Pepper.ottensamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09653631895217229875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-35755115617118491812017-03-21T15:24:06.742-07:002017-03-21T15:24:06.742-07:00Who is Everett Ross and Penny?Who is Everett Ross and Penny?RosiePhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11217705824689269830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-3131725115050500332016-08-30T08:15:17.157-07:002016-08-30T08:15:17.157-07:00Thank you for your comment. I wish you the best of...Thank you for your comment. I wish you the best of luck on your costume, but I actually don't focus much on Marvel at all (this post about Civil War was a rare exception) and I don't consider myself expert in costumes or cosplay. Thanks for the offer, though.ottensamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09653631895217229875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-63802795505827700042016-08-29T23:23:11.393-07:002016-08-29T23:23:11.393-07:00Your review was wonderful for the movie Captain Am...Your review was wonderful for the movie Captain America Civil War, I have read many rounded reviews on the Internet, though the movie has a large number of fans, but we cannot deny that the movie is perfect, there still exist some serious problem in it, Btw, We are now promoting our costume http://cosplaysky.co.uk/cosplay-costumes/movie-costumes/captain-america-costumes.html, can you help to do a article review for us ? we would offer the costume to you , your critical review would be much appreciated to us,it reminds us to improveCosplasyky UKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14835903174517476474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-52615125849359178452016-06-01T14:39:59.307-07:002016-06-01T14:39:59.307-07:00Yes, you are right about that plot problem and oth...Yes, you are right about that plot problem and others. I think Civil War was sort of bailed out because Zemo's true motivation was supposed to be a "surprise" at the end, so the stuff he was doing along the way kind of made sense at the time but then in hindsight, when you realize what Zemo was actually trying to do, his actions were full of holes like you pointed out. (But audience members wouldn't notice unless they actually went back through it carefully.)ottensamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09653631895217229875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-25980674857620443712016-06-01T10:35:25.571-07:002016-06-01T10:35:25.571-07:00I find your theme and character arc review of Civi...I find your theme and character arc review of Civil War interesting. But I also feel the movie has some plot problems that very few critics have seemed to mention. BvS had many critics/consumers seem to have issues with a nonlinear story. Well Civil War was certainly linear, but that didn't help some of the plot points from being confusing, at least to me. <br /><br />For example Zemo’s plan hinges on things just happening to turn out the way he wants them. I mean for the videotape to work, Zemo specifically needed Tony Stark to be there, since the tape only has emotional value for him. Yet Zemo does not provide any information to Stark about the base or the tape. If Falcon had not given Tony the address of the base, he would never have arrived. Cap and Bucky would have shut Zemo down. Plan fails. Brad Belmonthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03028562538208078490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-32707873730812355382016-05-31T13:52:55.528-07:002016-05-31T13:52:55.528-07:00Great minds think alike! I have also had several d...Great minds think alike! I have also had several debates with people about your objective/subjective point. I agree with you that, just because enjoyment of movies overall is subjective, it doesn't mean there is nothing that can be objectively analyzed about movies. A claim like your Lex motivation example or "XYZ happening made no sense" can be objectively disproven, but a claim like "I thought XYZ was too confusing" can be a valid opinion.<br /><br />For BvS, it seemed to get lots of hate from people who simply missed a lot of the objective facts of the movie. So you can criticize BvS for being too sophisticated or too multi-layered, but you can't say that it made no sense.ottensamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09653631895217229875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-9202277981001470242016-05-31T13:17:23.210-07:002016-05-31T13:17:23.210-07:00Yes, I saw it 5 times and learned something new ea...Yes, I saw it 5 times and learned something new each time. It is definitely not fast food. I agree that any talk of Disney/Marvel paying off critics to rate BvS poorly is beyond silly. Marvel may want their movies to do better but it is in their best interest for BvS to receive positive views as "a rising tide lifts all boats." <br /><br />There is no conspiracy, but things transpired in a way were the tenor of negativity "feels" like collusion rather than several different issues coming together in an unfortunate tornado of negativity. Having said that I do think that the sites fanning the negativity for clicks are part of a deliberate strategy not simply personal taste, unless their personal taste is simply to make money. <br /><br />Another issue that BvS brings to the forefront is the inability of many consumers to understand the difference between objective statements ("Lex Luthor had a reason for hating Superman") and subjective statement ("I didn't like Lex Luthor's reasons for hating Superman".) The former is true objectively; while the latter is only true from an individual's perspective. Many people can't seem to understand the difference. And that seems like a majority of the criticism.Brad Belmonthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03028562538208078490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-55631647753647555392016-05-31T12:38:44.256-07:002016-05-31T12:38:44.256-07:00Yes, you bring up some things that I definitely do...Yes, you bring up some things that I definitely do think are at play with the critical response. I do not buy into any of the conspiracy theories (e.g., critics bought off by Disney) but I do think there was a perfect storm of things you mentioned... critics already predisposed against Snyder, sites trying to chase clicks by fanning the negativity, and comparing BvS to the superhero formula that Marvel has developed. I also think that the fans and critics alike were not prepared for a non-conventional movie structure and a story where the audience had to read beneath the surface and not take characters at face value. So many people saw it once, were left with a negative feeling, and turned that into a negative review rather than stepping back to evaluate what they had seen or give it a second viewing (even myself, who loves deep movies and tends to have a style that aligns with Snyder, rated it much higher after 2nd viewing than I did after the 1st).ottensamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09653631895217229875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-34677391796738280702016-05-31T12:19:49.749-07:002016-05-31T12:19:49.749-07:00Sam,
In comparing the heat negative criticism the...Sam,<br /><br />In comparing the heat negative criticism the Batman v Superman received with the glowing praise that Civil War has had I assumed that it was an issue of personal taste. I loved BvS and only liked Civil War, which I found to have significantly more problematic issues than BvS.<br /><br />But I wonder now how much of this is simply a perfect storm of critics who tend to hate Zac Snyder and geek culture; Geek/entertainment websites whose financial model depends on clicks...and negativity garners more clicks along with a more verbally violent group of entitled "fanboys" who think their preferred version of a character is the only version allowed.<br /><br />On top of this Marvel has set the table for a style that is now viewed as the standard of superhero films and God help anyone with a different vision. Critics of BvS have made some legitimate points, but to me most of the criticism has been so childish, hateful and willfully ignorant that I am truly disheartened. Brad Belmonthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03028562538208078490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-68090354677555590662016-05-31T12:17:47.770-07:002016-05-31T12:17:47.770-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Brad Belmonthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03028562538208078490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-22510373581787801602016-05-31T06:30:25.657-07:002016-05-31T06:30:25.657-07:00Good question. The personal impact that the fights...Good question. The personal impact that the fights might have had on audience members is probably very subjective, but just in terms of my perspective, I thought the BvS fight was filmed better because I could feel all those hits and it worked in several epic beats in the fight, whereas, to be honest, the Iron Man vs Cap fight, while it was choreographed well, had a lot of moments where I thought it looked fake. In terms of emotion, I had a strong reaction to Batman so methodically carrying out the last parts of his plan with an unconscious Superman but then pulling himself off the edge of the abyss right at the end. I thought the movie had done a great job arcing his character to that point. With the IM/Cap fight, like I said in the analysis above, I just didn't really see storywise why that had to be the end of the fight.. what lessons were learned, or what change did it trigger in the characters? None that I could see, they just both were able to carry on what they were already trying to carry out. So maybe it was just me, but the fact that I didn't see how the resolution of the fight worked thematically, that dampened my emotional reaction to it.<br /><br />But if other people loved that IM/Cap fight and got a lot out of it, then that's great. I don't want to take away their enjoyment, because we're all just here trying to find stuff that we love. And I actually thought Act 3 of Civil War seemed like a great portion of a movie, it just didn't seem to align with what they had set up in Acts 1 and 2.ottensamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09653631895217229875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-31032215828333926952016-05-30T20:10:14.408-07:002016-05-30T20:10:14.408-07:00Hi. Nice review man. What do you think of the figh...Hi. Nice review man. What do you think of the fight choreography aspect of both iron man vs captain america and batman vs superman fight?? Which of these 2 fight you think is handled better in their own respective narrative movie and which one do you think is much more emotional? Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10678800877571500220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-68871262045289432302016-05-25T16:51:40.657-07:002016-05-25T16:51:40.657-07:00Wow, we'll probably just have to arrive at an ...Wow, we'll probably just have to arrive at an agree-to-disagree situation. I actually thought Civil War was the plot-based movie because its plot (sequence of events, one leading to the other) made sense and was clear to follow. I just thought it was thematically a mess (Act 1 didn't align with or inform the later Acts, as you admit; the themes of the story did not align with or shed light on the arcs of the characters), whereas BvS I thought was predominantly focused on themes and character arcs, not plot. The events in BvS I think were designed to force decision points for the characters and push them to the next steps in their arcs.<br /><br />To be honest, the way you described BvS in your post does not seem to be about the same movie at all that I saw. The only "turning on a dime" that I saw was Tony... twice. I thought Bruce's character arc was a masterpiece from the opening monologue to the closing monologue and everything in between. I thought Tony's arc was a mess (and I guess if you just call him a "hot mess" then there's no way I can counterargue his character's incoherence).<br /><br />You say the CW heroes all chose sides for personal reasons. Would you say they all had compelling reasons? I felt most of them were somewhat arbitrarily divided up on one side or the other.<br /><br />I guess I did bring more expectations to Civil War, like I expected the Act 1 premises to play in to the villain or the plot or the main characters... at least one of those!<br /><br />But I think it's great that you found enjoyment in it. I don't want to take that away. The only thing that I find better for society in BvS than in Civil War is the way that violence was treated as a negative, counterproductive thing in BvS but (after Act 1) was treated as fun and games in Civil War. (See http://www.nationalreview.com/article/435036/captain-america-superheroes-dumbed-down for more on this) But other than that, no harm in there being Civil War fans.ottensamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09653631895217229875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-57794531431550000862016-05-25T16:39:52.956-07:002016-05-25T16:39:52.956-07:00@snyder.junkie
Okay, that makes sense. Thanks for ...@snyder.junkie<br />Okay, that makes sense. Thanks for the extra info.ottensamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09653631895217229875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-89908164389877570772016-05-25T15:46:19.882-07:002016-05-25T15:46:19.882-07:00Your review was excellent, and that's all I me...Your review was excellent, and that's all I meant, as far as my comment is concerned. If I did confuse you, I apologize.<br /><br />The thing is, I'm noticing now that Civil War suffers from the same problems Batman v Superman was accused of having (incoherent, messy, multiple movies crammed into one, etc). However, it all comes down to the fact that Batman v Superman has none of those issues (and yet it is continuously criticized), while Civil War, as you wonderfully pointed out, is *plagued* by them, and yet it is a critically acclaimed film. This is why I found it ironic!<br /> <br />I meant to say, while their sense of logic might suggest that Civil War is indeed incoherent, it lacks proper characterization/character development or a central theme, the majority of movie-goers will still convince themselves that it's a quintessential comic-book film, based on its RT "freshness". <br /><br />The point is that this review completely contrasts the general trend of mindlessly adoring or despising a film based on its "critical consensus", and therefore it stands out as a solid and honest analysis, which I haven't seen very often these last few weeks. So, in a way, among the short-sighted and "popcorn film"-oriented reviews, this one almost feels out of place. XD <br /><br />All in all, you did a great job! I hope I clarified everything. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5935799542324632108.post-85616280725720707022016-05-25T15:39:01.472-07:002016-05-25T15:39:01.472-07:00Very interesting. It has given me a lot to think a...Very interesting. It has given me a lot to think about, our very different perspectives on these two movies this summer. It's nice for me that the different perspective comes from someone whose opinion and process I respect. So I do not begrudge you your ideas.<br /><br />Which are so obviously wrong! <br /><br />I think your main point here is that the characters don't follow the main conflict of personal responsibility vs oversight. I think that's on purpose. That is the apparent cause of the conflict, but the characters choose sides for personal reasons and are fighting about those. That is part of what makes this a character driven movie instead of a plot driven movie. They choose sides, but the reason for the sides is different for everyone.<br /><br />Tony is a hot mess, as my kids say. He has unresolved childhood issues, substance issues, legitmate guilt, and obsessive compulsive problems. At a crucial moment here, he knows what the right choice is, to back down and just cannot. His decisions feel very consistent to me. He expects others to follow him because he is the smartest guy in the room. <br /><br />Steve Rodgers is about personal responsibility and loyalty throughout. No matter the cost.<br /><br />One different thing here is that in the big hero-on-hero fight, no one is fighting to the death. The only casualty here is from friendly fire. (In itself quite the caution, eh?)<br /><br />As I ponder the two movies and out different reactions, I've only reached one possible explanation. Most people (including me, despite me not being most people most of the time) have expectations for these characters. You were willing to start from scratch in the cinematic universe. So a Batman who kills or a grim Superman, not a big issue for you. For me, it's a big disappointment. Why use Batman and Superman then, except as a brand for marketing?<br /><br />In the Marvel movies these are not straight out of the comics, which have a long convoluted history. But the idea of the characters is compatible. This was Captain America and Iron Man, as brought to life by Chris and Robert. So the story satisfied on a basic level. This was people pursuing their internal motivations which led to conflict and tragedy. Batman vs Superman was a plot, which drew the characters along playing their necessary parts, turning on a dime. Bruce wants to kill Superman and then is deeply connected to him. Diana wants to be separate from society and then is all in with these new people. Clark is against Batman but recognizes him as a hero when he stops a hair's breadth from killing him. Lex wants humans first or only and creates an unstoppable alien killing machine.<br /><br />Always willing to talk more! This has been fascinating.John Goldenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18212162438307044259noreply@blogger.com